Songwriting: Do you collaborate?

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 8:49 am

There's an interesting article at The New York Times called "It Takes Two, Baby" by the songwriter Darrell Brown. He talks about how he loves people and loves to collaborate in the songwriting process, then takes us through an example of a collaboration he did with LeAnn Rimes on a song called “What I Can Not Change” which ended up on her latest CD.

Some people don't find it so easy or inviting to collaborate. Does it work for you?

Please tell us your disasters and successes when it comes to collaborating and what you found works best for you. Question

Newbie Joined: Nov 17, 2005 Posts: 7

Everything I've ever written is collaboration. I play in a band, (not a singer/song writer type). We write the music, arrange it, and write lyrics together. It takes forever, but I like the product much better than most bands where one person does all the writing. As a result, we have an organic sound, as we all have something invested in the roles we are playing in the band.

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:42 pm

Makes sense that the more each member has invested in the music, the more they'll care about the outcome. Do you guys argue a lot in the process?

Listening now. Twisted Evil

Through The Mist...strove to make music that is unique, technical, heavy and above all else, melodic. Looking to create something that would challenge everyone in the band.

There's definitely an emphasis on technique in your writing, but I hear the melodic bits in there too. You'd have to be pretty pissed-off to relate to the vocals though. I don't know much about death-metal, but I know there's always that evil growl happening.

Newbie Joined: Nov 05, 2007 Posts: 7

I have collaborated eons ago. I enjoyed it and don't rule it out in the future . I think that you have to have someone there with a like mind.

But for the most part I tend to write alone. I get very concentrated and it tends to break that if i have to explain my thought process to someone in the midst of working on the tune.

On 1 occasion a song was written by the whole band. It was quite the experience . We did'nt agree on anything musicially after that. lol ...So if you can write as a band...more power to ya.

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:50 pm

Right, I totally understand getting so involved in your tune you don't want to slow down to explain it to anybody. I'm kinda like that, I guess. I tried writing with a friend of mine once and all was well for about the first ten minutes, but at a certain point I just wanted to grab it and run with it. In five more minutes, I'd finished the verse, wrote the bridge and began on the chorus. I just had to run with it once I was inspired. But then, the song never got finished or recorded because he'd lost interest in it.

I'm sure there's something to be said for letting go at some point, stepping back and allowing somebody else to share their point of view and their unique talents. Otherwise, you probably just disappear up your own arse.! Surprised

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:26 pm

I love to collaborate on song writing when I'm in a band. When I was the drummer for Choking Susan, Colleen and Keith used to let me orchestrate some of the songs as I seem to have a good ear for that sort of thing. The end result was ususually something we were proud of. See Colleen writes all of the words for Choking Susan so we never really had to worry about that. She is awesome at writing lyrics! ... Keith & I, and the other members would usually concentrate on writing the music for the songs and Coll would come up with the melody and lyrics.

When it comes to my own songs however, I am a bit more picky. But always open to ideas.

Groupie Joined: Nov 15, 2007 Posts: 76

I've never done this, and I have a lot of doubts about this kind of process being a group effort.

Music comes from a very inward, "deep" and personal place, and, there are just a lot of little pieces and detail with building a song. Collab can work if it's the case that someone presents some sort of first draft practically all done, and others assess it and offer ideas to that thing, with some effort to put final polish on it, like "A two-line climb before the chorus is needed here", or "The lyrics are too specific and should be more general and relatable in that second verse", or "The main riff is weak and not catchy enough" or "There's too much fat in the bridge; Cut it in half", and so on. When such criticisms are brought up, then players can "retreat" individually to invent some acceptable alternative, then cycle the whole thing again, and repeat as necessary. If done that way, where group and individual efforts "take turns", it can work, but I just can't picture three people sitting at a table and a whiteboard writing a song from scratch. Groups are not good devices for low-detail work, in my opinion, and the personal nature of this product makes groups seem even less good for getting this particular kind of job done. If collab is going on, I'm a fan of a compromised approach, where little pieces are worked out individually, and those bigger pieces are brought "pre-fabbed" to bring the larger thing together.

I admire successful collab when it can be done, though. I can't imagine anyone that would have the patience and open-mindedness to group-build a whole song from scratch with me. I'm convinced that anyone that would do this with me, well, we'd end up hating each other!...

Newbie Joined: Nov 17, 2005 Posts: 7

We most definately argue (especially since my brother is in the band). But, its worth it!

Musical differences make it very difficult to write together. As stated by others, this makes it hard to have an end product that everyone likes.

The only way a true collaboration can happen is if the following conditions are made (in my opinion):

1. No one can get upset if the other person doesn't like what they wrote. Get over it.
2. Give every disputed part a chance, and let it sit for at least a day before you cut it.
3. If you don't like something, tell exactly why.
4. If you have something in mind for the next section, or a specific part that you want with something you wrote, tell everyone!
5. If you're not having fun, stop, cause music is just entertainment and isn't worth losing friends over.

Any more to add/change/remove?

Newbie Joined: May 02, 2008 Posts: 2

I have to write by myself. I need to get inside my own head and when people are around me, it distracts me and I forget my own ideas.

I usually write the songs, the lyrics, melody, arrangements then take it to the band. We, as a band, will fine tune the arrangments for a better flow and add the necessary dymanics and rythym and leads.

I'm kind of interesting in way that when I write - I hear all the parts in my head, so I have a pretty good feel for where a song should go before I actually bring them to the band members.

Newbie Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 5

It is my opinion that it takes an equal influence from each member to truly create a great band, without that things tend to sound labored. Keeping focus is essential, but it shouldn't rely on one persons vision.
I used to tell singer/songwriters...and please no offense intended, that format just doesn't work for me...but I would tell them that if I am to play scripted music that one person is writing, then you need to pay me for rehearsals as well as shows and should be treated as session work.(minimum $35/hr)
Again this is just one mans opinion. I prefer 3-piece bands; and if i'm singing lead, I tell the other members that I have 34% of the decision...so basically having VETO power to the melody and time signature. And this is simply because of my own limitations to what I can play and sing at the same time.

So yeah definately prefer the collaberation of each members influence.

!!! HORNS UP !!!
Chip of QuiverBone

Groupie Joined: Nov 06, 2007 Posts: 81

I'd locked horns with a few singer/songwriters about making music. "I did not write that note for you!" That really pissed me off!! They'd expect me to hear the song in their head. I was told that because it was "Their" song I owed it to them to get it right. I just love watching these singer/songwriters over time and the mix of musicians that they have come and go through their bands. I guess nobody ever gets it right.